Game of Thrones: Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

5/18/2015

As you've seen, I'm not very happy with Episode 6...

... and I'm sure you could guess the major reason why. I'm actually really surprised a few of you think it was a great episode, and even up there with the best of the series so far. So, while the big issue is the show's choices with Sansa, it's also just wasn't a great episode before that.

There was some good... definitely. I'm mostly good with Arya in the House of B&W. They rushed it, and I'm pretty meh on her offering the water... as it's supposed to be the one who wants the Gift that actually makes the choice. But, I get that the girl's father asked for it to end her suffering... fine. But, THAT is what moves her forward? And good to see she didn't actually hate The Hound. The show rushed her along and it really felt like she learned nothing but how to scrub and clean a body, but it's not surprising that they're speeding her along... they're hurrying a lot of things. Also, I enjoyed Tyrion and Jorah's time. I do wish Penny was around... cause if you say you don't want to see Tyrion ride a pig, you're lying.

Bronn is almost always great when he's on screen.. and thus far, I've really liked his trip to Dorne with Jaime. That fight with the Sand Snakes, however, was horrible. I think I'm just really disappointed in how they've been presented to us in general. Dorne sadly lacks
Princess Arianne, as well.

I think I've mentioned before about the shows lapse in logic and continuity... including with how the Faith is handling things. This pops up again.. as we see Littlefinger stopped by Lancel and multiple members of the Faith Militant. Everybody knows what Littlefinger does, in fact... they raided his brothels already. But when faced with the man himself, the Faith stands down? Bullocks. They grab the 'future of Highgarden' on accusations, but just step aside when Petyr even admits to 'peddling flesh.' This makes the Faith seem like Cersei's puppet... also craptastic, even if it is setting us up for something.

Speaking of lapse in logic and continuity and Littlefinger... he is supposed to have a mass of information, know who is who and what they're doing and capable of. But, for some reason... he either doesn't know, or doesn't care, how bad Ramsey is. It's near impossible to imagine that he didn't know all about Ramsey... that's just out of character. And if he knew, he would have taken precautions to keep something like this from happening to Sansa.. he knows she's the key to the North. Or, he wanted this to happen, which I don't see how it would fit into what he's been doing.

Okay... so the big issue.

Yes, this is in character for Ramsey (and yes, Iwan Rheon is awesome in the part), so it's not a surprise there. Yes, what happens with Jeyne Poole in the books is 'worse.' Neither of those things are really relevant. Since Sansa never ventures to Winterfell at this point in the books, the showrunners had an opportunity to shape this anyway they want, yet they intentionally went the rape route. And it seems that it's for not much, if anything, more than additional shock/emotional value.

Jon mentioned that he's reserving judgment until he sees where they're going after the rape scene... but I have to wonder, where can it go that will make you okay with it? It feels as if it's just a plot device to move Theon forward. It certainly isn't to move Sansa forward... and if that's what they're going to sell it as, it's bullshit. She's already been one of the most broken characters and dealt with more shit than most. And finally she was maturing and growing into her own agency and power. The show already has very few strong and positive female characters (and they've left out others in Arianne, Stoneheart, etc)... so taking one of them and reducing her to a rape victim was absolutely unnecessary and disappointing. I'm guessing they make her come back even stronger after this and seek revenge, but she was already showing her increasing resolve and she already had reason to hate the Boltons. So if it's for Theon, it's a gross use of Sansa, and if it's for Sansa, it was grossly unnecessary for the character's development. And I don't see how any of it is justified, even if this leads to bad things for Ramsey... he had them coming anyway. "This is Game of Thrones" isn't good enough, either.

With that, it felt like poor writing when looking at parts leading up to this episode. Multiple things were shown to us to prevent this from happening. I already mentioned Littlefinger, which I feel is a huge slight. But also, we know Sansa has supporters in Winterfell still.. that are looking to protect her. They're nowhere here, though (which is probably understandable, in fear of the Boltons). And more so, Brienne is supposed to have somebody relaying news to her, right? How would she not know that the wedding is happening... and if she did, she'd be there. She's right near Winterfell for that very reason, instead she's left completely out of the episode/picture.

Basically, using rape as a tool just to gain shock value or to move another character along is disgusting... and while I'm not surprised by it at this point, I am disappointed. Like I said, I am a little surprised that you guys really liked the episode so much, and didn't seem at all bothered by the direction they went. I probably made a bunch of typos or forgot to bring up a few points or didn't present a few well enough... but wanted to post something.

70 Comments

Bryan

5/18/2015 06:00:23 am

I'd rather not dive into the Sansa stuff in a public forum.

The most absurd part of the entire series happened in this episode. I was assuming the Sand Snakes were building an army or coalition to take on the throne in Dorne. Turns out there are only 4 of them who are mediocre fighters. 4! What a let down.

Bobby

5/18/2015 06:04:11 am

I don't see what's wrong with discussing that in public, but fair enough.

The show basically makes Oberyn's children a bunch of jokes as warriors... I don't like it.

Sean

5/18/2015 06:14:07 am

During their intro they mentioned they were on their own and going to take the princess by themselves. Maybe its the actors playing them that make them look like bad fighters, I don't think it would be unrealistic for them to stalemate with Bronn and Jamie especially given the fact 1 of them is concerned with the capture the whole time. They're very young just because Oberyn trained them doesn't mean they can fight as good as him yet.

5/18/2015 06:24:24 am

Actually, they're all in their 20s, Obara closer, if not, 30..... which isn't young by any means, especially not for the time period. And part of the point of that horrible introduction, was Obara showing she's a bad ass by throwing a perfect shot with her spear through the guy's head. I think it's just an overall misrepresentation of them. If they wanted to cut characters, they might as well have cut them and given more time to others if their plan was this.

And like Phil said... bad choreography, which shouldn't happen at this point on the show.

5/18/2015 07:14:21 am

They seem awfully young in the casting, can't transfer age from book to show but usually they have gone older to avoid the whole teenage rape stuff with Dany.

5/18/2015 07:39:52 am

Agreed, they do appear a bit younger, even though the actresses are about the right age, but 1 being only 19. Still, there's been plenty of warriors who were great when young, especially late teens to early twenties. Regardless, they don't really feel like they have much impact on anything with how they're given in the show.

5/18/2015 08:33:34 am

Part of the reason the Sand Snakes suck on the show is there is absolutely no mystery to them, they are singularly focused on revenge and have no finesse. Oberyn was in Kings Landing for revenge but way playing the Game quite well until he started high stepping too early and didn't finish the Mountain, which of course came from his lust for revenge.

Phil

5/18/2015 06:01:16 am

I think I understand your qualms in that it is a disgusting act, but I think you're pointing at the wrong characters in terms of development. This felt to me like Ramsey development. We didn't actually know how he was going to treat Sansa as his wife, and now we do. We already knew how Ramsey felt about commoners in his bed... this solidified that he's a bonafide nutjob. At this point, I don't think we can definitively say one way or the other how this plays out.

I will say though, it makes Theon interesting again. It was getting harder and harder to justify his existence in the show.

So I'll wait this one out as well. I don't believe the scenes for next week showed Sansa at all, so we won't be getting any fallout quite yet it appears.

As for Littlefinger, his motivations make perfect sense to me. He has never actually cared about people in the show, save Catylen of course. His only drive is ambition. Originally, he thought the path to power was through Sansa, but that is clearly no longer the case.

Also, I have no clue who Arienne and Stoneheart are. I'm just assuming at this point that the show is cutting characters for the sake of budget. I have no desire to read the books, and I think I'm making the right choice as bookreaders seem more and more outraged every day.

The sand snakes fight was pretty terrible. I blame poor choreography.

5/18/2015 06:06:21 am

"As for Littlefinger, his motivations make perfect sense to me. He has never actually cared about people in the show, save Catylen of course. His only drive is ambition. Originally, he thought the path to power was through Sansa, but that is clearly no longer the case."

I agree. Littlefinger looking to be warden of north gets him one step closer to the throne.

5/18/2015 06:18:51 am

So you're telling me that the character who most viewers see as the most vile person in the land, well beyond that of Joffery... needed MORE development toward that? That sounds like such a load of justificashit. Anybody who had doubts that Ramsey was a 'bonafide nutjob' skipped the previous seasons.

It isn't just about a disgusting act... Yes, I'm disgusted by rape, but I also understand it's a real thing and that it can be used in books/tv/movies/etc. It's about the show's use of it.

And that's part of my point... it shouldn't take Sansa getting raped to make Theon interesting.

If you are able to believe Littlefinger cared for Cat, then I think you have to feel he cares for Sansa, even if it is only because of Cat. Otherwise, he's basically spitting on the memory and love for Cat by using Sansa as a pawn, especially in this way.

Sure, some characters are cut for budget, others for less reasons (they gave one for Stoneheart, which was pretty bogus.) But, they've also added characters, or given lesser characters much bigger roles. Their budget is fine.

Joe

5/19/2015 10:24:17 am

Why would Littlefinger care for Sansa? He's only ever cared for Cat, and he has said as much. Sansa is an extension of Ned Stark, and nothing more than a tool to him.

Shane the book reader

5/19/2015 08:57:28 am

I'm not outraged. They're two different things. I can compartmentalize because I'm a grown and my brain has developed.

5/19/2015 09:26:42 am

I'm not upset about the fact that the show changes things from the book, as I've stated before... many are necessary and even good, some are not.... and it's okay to not be happy about those. I separate the show and books pretty well for the most part... although, it's likely that nobody does a perfect job of it with so much info already in your head about characters and such.

5/18/2015 06:22:41 am

I was the one that called it among the best episodes of the series on facebook so of course I disagree with Bobby.

I was assuming he had a bigger beef with how Loras has been portrayed as I have read a lot of complaints about that on the interwebs. Being offended by Sansa's rape when it is something everyone has known is coming once she was swapped in place of the book character to marry Ramsey. She knew it was coming, that's one of the things that made the scene with Littlefinger in the crypts so good, "I expect I'll be a married woman by the time you return" She knew he wasn't going to be like Tyrion and leave her alone, Baelish knew it too and I reject the sentence about him not knowing or caring- of course he doesn't care. He's arranging his pieces on the chess board in such a way that he can win no matter who else wins, Stannis, the Boltons, Cersei, he can argue that he has been loyal to all 3, even Sansa if she survives will still count him as an ally.

5/18/2015 06:32:31 am

Swapping her with Jeyne does not mean she had to follow Jeyen's story.. as they're not AT ALL the same character. And a huge portion of the story wasn't dedicated to already breaking one character down, to build her up and actually give her a sense of agency in world where women already have very little. There were multiple ways this line could have went that didn't end with that scene.

And I'll accept that thought on Littlefinger, but only if people are also believing that Cat (and therefore Sansa) didn't mean as much as he played out. While a lot of Littlefinger is a lie, not all of it is.... and that's why he's so good at the game... nobody really knows his truths.

But yes, the portrayal of Loras has been pretty weak.. he's basically nothing but the gay guy. He is one of the better jousters and even fighters we know of in Westeros, and definitely isn't getting his proper due. There also might not be a person who Tommen looks up to more... not so much in the show.

Jon

5/18/2015 09:34:17 am

I can just picture Riley saying 'Who the fuck is Jeyne?'

5/18/2015 01:10:44 pm

I read enough to know some of the changes and a few theories

Shane

5/19/2015 09:00:26 am

Of course if she married Ramsay, he would rape her. Makes sense. Of course Littlefinger would set that up. It makes sense to him. That she was raped shouldn't be what is outrageous because it makes sense. We just need to see how they deal with it. If it's pure Ramsay, it's dumb. If it's pure Theon, the same. But it can drive all three characters and be successful. But it needs to start with Sansa.

5/18/2015 06:27:26 am

Arya- ok you can complain her story is rushed but the alternative is more cleaning dead bodies, lets move on.

Tyrion- How does one become a cock merchant? What powers to dwarf cocks contain? I would appreciate a behind the episode feature specifically dedicated to answering these questions.

Bronn and Jaime- The Sand Snakes are boring worst part of the episode, I sure hope Bronn doesn't die a slow painful death from poison after taking a flesh wound in that fight.

Kings Landing- the Cersei Oleanna exchange was great- What veil. Hell yea.

5/18/2015 06:36:09 am

That's the thing... the conversations, questioning and games Arya participated in with the Waif and the Kindly main were far more important than the cleaning.... and yet in the show, cleaning bodies is almost all that mattered. Yet a few smacks teaches her how to tell the lie and give the gift? Meh. The definitely could have had more good interaction with Jaqen.

I thought the same thing about cock merchants when they said that... that's a hell of a line of work to get into! It has, however, been said more than once that dwarfs cocks are lucky/powerful/magic/etc.

The Queen of Thorns is always a delight.

5/18/2015 09:33:21 am

I disagree about Arya's training. The show effectively communicated the passage of time with the different bodies on the slab, and it also implies this is not the first time Jaqen has played that 'game' with her. The clock's ticking towards the end, and I am fully on board with training sequences being abbreviated. That's why Bran's not on this season, as all his scenes would be learning how to do new stuff. He's going to come back next season ready to go, or at least I hope he will.

5/18/2015 10:45:34 am

The passage of time wasn't the issue. We knew it's been weeks, and that's fine. It's the quick jump from clean bodies to 'become somebody else' that i thought could have been gradually done a little better, with interactions... more lie/face games, etc.

5/18/2015 01:33:38 pm

You're asking for more training, and I don't think the producers are interested in doing that if they don't have to.

5/19/2015 03:13:30 am

Sure, they can get by on the bare minimum, but that doesn't mean it's the best result. I watch the show with a non-book reader.... and I was asked "Is that really all she does, clean floors and bodies?" And that's what it felt like her training was, until the quick couple of scenes in this episode... which all of a sudden make here ready because now she could convincingly lie to a sick girl who probably couldn't detect a lie any better than Arya had thus far. If they could take the time so show so much of the tedious tasking that teaches her servitude, the could have easily put in a few more quick clips of her playing the games and failing and talking about the Gift, etc.

5/19/2015 09:01:15 am

Arya was my favorite part in this episode.

5/18/2015 09:19:59 am

Here's a more well written piece about it, including a reference to the beloved Mad Max film...

http://www.themarysue.com/we-will-no-longer-be-promoting-hbos-game-of-thrones/

5/18/2015 10:19:41 am

That's the same article I read before I made the below post. I'm not going to quit watching no matter what, but they make a lot of good points.

5/18/2015 09:39:27 am

On my reserving judgment statement, we'll just have to see how it plays out. If Sansa takes an active, pivotal part in the Bolton's downfall, which I feel is certain at this point, then the black mark of that scene gets softened into a gray. If this all about spurring Theon to action, then yeah, it's pretty gross.

Some critic tweeted after the episode that this was especially poorly timed after Fury Road. That's a movie about sex slaves escaping from their rapist, and didn't contain a single rape while making its presence prior to the film crystal clear. Game of Thrones didn't have to do this, especially after completely fucking up the Jaime-Cersei scene from last season.

5/18/2015 10:49:08 am

Wasn't Sansa already at a point where she wanted to be involved (and should be) in the Bolton downfall... as the last Stark in Winterfell, hell the last Stark south of the Wall at this point, who has repeatedly stated why she hates the Boltons after what they did to her family (which, I'd say it seems people want revenge more when their loved ones are hurt, more than when they are, so this is even more of an unnecessary push toward a place we already were with her)

5/18/2015 11:09:14 am

I don't have a problem with her marriage to Ramsay or the speed of it, and I don't have a problem with Ramsay's proclivities squeeking under Littlefinger's radar. He's not as notorious in the show as he is in the books, and I can believe that the North is difficult for his spies to learn about. I don't even have a problem with the marriage being consummated in the worst way possible, as that seems inevitable. I have a problem with the act being shown onscreen and the fade to black being backed up by Sansa's screams. It's gross and gratuitous. It's like if Law and Order SVU showed the crime instead of just investigating the aftermath.

5/18/2015 12:17:59 pm

That didn't at all answer my question...

In movie talks you seem much more critical of characters who don't get their due development or who get their development derailed by bad writing.... and that's within a two hour frame (usually). Was not Sansa already to a point where she should/would be involved in the Boltons' downfall due to the acts they've already committed against her family? Was this event necessary for that to happen, and does it really push it from the black to grey?

How does it seem inevitable? That's even more reason that it shouldn't have happened. It could have gone many different ways... Theon stopping him, Sansa having a blade on her (under that big dress, completely possible), Miranda in a fit of jealousy (but we knew that wouldn't happen), or Brienne actually coming through on that oath... and probably many others. Hell, even Sansa turning it around and not only consenting, but becoming the dominate one in the act... something I think even Theon would have taken something more valuable toward his rebound, from seeing Ramsey being submissive for once.

5/18/2015 01:18:30 pm

Her rape has nothing to do with getting her to actively engage in the Boltons downfall, it is known she is marrying this psycho and she's not foolish enough to believe that he won't touch her until she's ready. It's much more realistic that she submits as she does than actively faking enjoyment as a willing participant and given that she is alone and surrounded by enemies, whether the north remembers or not, fighting is an unwinnable situation for her.

5/18/2015 01:32:29 pm

In contrast to Arya, who is casting aside her noble birth to get her revenge, Sansa is using her birth for the same means. Sansa's (hopefully) going to upend systems by being a part of them, and being part of them means marrying and giving up control of your body. This is a fact of life for brides in this world, and becoming a bride is a major way for women wield to power in this world. The Queen of Thorns might very well have had something very similar happen to her on her wedding night, and now she's the most powerful person in her family.

I read somewhere, maybe in that Mary Sue article, that part of the appeal of GoT is that the inevitable happens, whereas other shows draw it out or drop in a deus ex machina, Ned and Robb dying being the obvious examples. If Breaking Bad were GoT, Walt would've died shortly after having his breakdown in the crawl space, because that was the most likely way things were going to go, just like this is the most likely result for Sansa.

I think all your alternatives are worse than just not showing the scene at all.

5/18/2015 05:05:49 pm

Again, my main question wasn't answered... but that just really reads like show apologist... which you've admitted to before, so I guess it's hard to debate that. Just because marital rape is legal in that kind of setting, doesn't make this a good plot device, especially with how Sansa has progressed, but you're ignoring that. And that kind of assumption for Ollena seems baseless, beyond you grasping for comparison.

And Riley, I'm not sure it is more realistic that she just submits. Even when she thought she had to sleep with Tyrion, she showed hesitation and went for the wine. This Sansa was supposed to be much stronger and have more power.

5/18/2015 05:33:45 pm

To directly answer your question of what does this do for Sansa's character that wasn't already established by her knowing about the role the Bolton's played in the Red Wedding, it's the show sticking to its repeated theme of Who Cares About What You Want. Sansa's goals are not stronger than the inertia of this society. Dany wants to free slaves, but the inertia of a slave-based economy is stronger than her desires, right though she may be. Teenage Tyrion wanted to run away with his teenage wife, but his family name prevented it. Jaime just wants to be with Cersei, but the culture won't let him. To paraphrase a book catchphrase, whims are wind. That might fit with your thesis, that this was just using rape as one more mark on Sansa's Horrible Shit That's Happened To Me ledger, but per the linked essay, I think it really only could've gone this way.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2015/05/18/another_major_character_is_raped_on_game_of_thrones_this_time_it_works_for.html

5/18/2015 05:40:24 pm

As far as being a show apologist, I agree with you that this was one of the worst episodes of the show thus far. I liked the Arya and Tyrion stuff and most of the Sansa stuff, but the Dorne stuff remains bad, the Sparrows are given way too much deference by everyone while drawing a hamfisted modern parallel to homophobia, and the ending was badly miscalculated.

5/18/2015 05:53:59 pm

Yeah,I can't get on board with that at all. So... it doesn't develop her character to any point that she wasn't already at. Nobody's arguing against what the society is or isn't... or even about the character's goals... but with how the show chose to take a character and put her in a situation that was completely unnecessary and their general habit of reducing (or negating) strong female characters. They had choices for Sansa... and I don't think this was the right one. Nor is this about caring what anybody wants... I just think it's poor and gross choice for a character arc, and using rape as a plot device like this is pretty inexcusable. And the fact that the scene felt creepy and serious, doesn't change that... especially since a lot of the emotional weight relied on Theon's face.

5/18/2015 07:02:03 pm

I'm with the Slate essay in the 'this could only happen this way' fashion, not the 'this was tastefully filmed' fashion. That assumes that Sansa marrying Ramsay is the only way her plot could've continued in the show. Even with the latest events, I still think that was the best place for her, as leaving her in the Vale is a complete non-starter. I honestly don't know how she could've been better served than by throwing her into one of the two or three big convergences that are going to happen in the next few episodes.

5/18/2015 07:14:40 pm

I very well might find myself completely agreeing with you in a couple of weeks. The best possible outcome is something like Girl With a Dragon Tattoo. If it just ends up being a knight-in-castrated-armor play, it was exploitative and another black mark on the show.

5/19/2015 02:39:17 am

"I'm with the Slate essay in the 'this could only happen this way' fashion, not the 'this was tastefully filmed' fashion. That assumes that Sansa marrying Ramsay is the only way her plot could've continued in the show. Even with the latest events, I still think that was the best place for her..."

So, the only place for her to go was marrying Ramsey? And the only way that ends is being raped? That basically sounds like you're saying, the only way to make Sansa's story work, for her to rise up in the North, is rape as a plot device, even though it actually adds nothing to her arc except for rape, although I suppose they'll veil it as the reason for the revenge she actually already wanted, as you're hoping for. And for me, that still leaves it as a big black mark.

Kale

5/18/2015 06:29:04 pm

https://twitter.com/daily_kale/status/600138744440758272

5/18/2015 06:51:31 pm

Television, like most people, could always use more leafy greens.

5/19/2015 03:09:40 am

True story, Sunday night I made salmon with kale and brown rice for dinner and it was delicious, Mindy even took a picture of it and posted in on facebook.

5/19/2015 03:14:53 am

But... did she include hashtags?

5/19/2015 06:52:26 am

She's not hip to the hashtag game

Kale link

5/19/2015 06:25:26 pm

So do movies

http://www.woot.com/offers/kale-bill-2

Shane link

5/19/2015 09:09:15 am

5/19/2015 10:20:21 am

First, I have to say that I think you are holding on to the books too tightly. Yes, we all love the books. They are great books, and yes the show is inspired by the books. BUT, if you can't separate the show from the books, you are going to have a hard time enjoying the experience. Worrying about Arya killing the sick girl just seems silly to me.

Now, on to Sansa. You do realize she's a punching bag right? At no point has she even remotely appeared to be gaining anything positive in relation to get status in life after Ned's untimely death. She has managed to avoid being raped for 3 or 4 seasons now. It just goes to show how her situation keeps getting worse, and never better. She's a weak character, and always has been. Constantly following others around and faithfully doing what she's told. Why should going home to Winterfell make that any different?

As for the show lacking any strong women, I disagree greatly. Arya, Brienne, Melisandre, Lady Olenna, Princess Shireen, Iggrett...

Rape in Kings Landing is common place. If that isn't clear by now, I'm not sure what show you've been watching.

Also, the Lannister Twins scene was not rape.

5/20/2015 07:11:41 am

In the book, it seems like there's some sort of consent. But on the show, I don't recall any overt consent. You?

5/20/2015 09:07:32 am

Overt consent it's irrelevant. Consent is consent.

Furthermore, the only understanding of consent that is important is the understanding between Cersei and Jamie. As long as they understand each other, that's what is important. And I think they both definitely understood there to be consent in that situation. If others outside of their relationship don't understand their consent, it's really not important.

5/20/2015 09:19:41 am

Who cares that they've had sex hundreds of times in the past? If Cersei doesn't want to do it for the 842nd time, then Jaime has no right to force her into it. Cersei's body language, the camera work, the music, it's all communicating that she does not want to do this, and the confusion amongst the director and the showrunners in interviews after suggest they were not in agreement on what was happening, which means there's more than one way to interpret what was going on.

5/20/2015 11:39:16 am

She literally said, "it's not right" and "stop it" multiple times... to he replied, at least once, with, "no"

She initiated the initial kiss, but then turned away... besides, A kiss is not a contract.. whoa oh whoa
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duJOFbtMn1Q

5/20/2015 11:44:45 am

Whoa, whoa, whoa there sir. I said nothing about them having gross bro on sis sex. I left that out because you are absolutely right, previous intercourse means nothing to consent.

What I was talking about was the understanding between Cersei and Jamie. I the show has implied, and even had Cersei and Jamie audibly express that nobody understands them or their relationship. It's a bond that only they share. I think that bond, as grotesque as it may be, has reached a level where their actions are understood in a way that they only they percieve.

If Cersei did not want to have sex with Jamie she wouldn't have. I have no doubt that there was consent between the two and that was not a rape scene.

5/20/2015 12:01:40 pm

How exactly would Cersei stop him? She's not going to over power him?

He actually said "I don't care" as he pushed her to the ground as she said "stop it" and "this isn't right". But with what you're saying, it seems that anytime and anywhere that Jaime wanted it, could never be considered rape because of their connection and how their relationship has been in the past.. when in reality, every single moment before the moment she doesn't want to have sex is irrelevant.

Now, if they would have had her say "it's not right in front of our son" but she was the one who re-instigated it... that's one thing, but when you get to 5 or 7 'Stop' please, or just one works, it's crossed that line.

5/20/2015 12:22:23 pm

How exactly would Cersei stop him? Exactly like she has stopped him the numerous times before and after. The show has shown her deny him on several occasions and Jaime deals with it.

You'll have to explain the rest of your comment because I'm not following.

What I am saying is that their relationship is so fucked up that shit is going to going to look really fucked from normal perspective on the outside. I look at that scene from the context of their really fucked up realtionship. If Cersei didn't want to have sex she would have used some sort of secret code word.

I think trying to put their relationship into the context of a normal relationship is a mistake. Nothing between those two is ever going to be straightforward, and this scene is no different.

5/20/2015 12:43:38 pm

But the only real fucked up dynamic of their relationshp... is that they are siblings... which has absolutely nothing to do with consent. They're in love/connected, just like a normal couple would be that couldn't be together for whatever reason.

What do you need explained? She said 'stop it' over and over again... he said "no" and "I don't care." If there was a safe word for their on screen sexual deeds, the viewers would/should know about it.

Being in a fucked up relationship isn't grounds for consensual sex when ever just one side consents. When one party says no and resists... any push forward after that from the other is coercion or force... which if leads to sex, is rape.

I watched it again...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBG5WSGyD2k

Making assumptions about their relationship instead of taking what is presented on screen just doesn't work for me here.

5/20/2015 12:55:22 pm

Uhhh, no, their relationship is much more fucked up than simply being brother and sister. That you even said that has me wondering if you have paid attention to their characters at all.

Since when are not allowed to read between the lines or make analytic interpretations about the characters on the show? Isn't that the entire point of this? We, as viewers, are never going to know every aspect of the characters. We have to fill in the spaces.

Also, I am not saying that being in a fucked up relationhip is automatic consent to get fucked all day errrry day. What I'm saying is they know what each others words and body language is actually telling each other. Would approach sex that way? Hell no. Do Cersei and Jaime? Yes. Why? I have no idea, but I know they like it and it gets them off.

5/20/2015 01:06:11 pm

Well, please enlighten me as to what I've missed that presents this as consensual. ? Has she ever said 'no' and meant 'yes' before... that's a thing that Robin Thicke sings about, isn't it? Sure, reading in between the lines is one thing, but creating imaginary safe words and such seems to be a stretch to me.

joe

5/20/2015 01:34:33 pm

Two things that tell me this was consensual.

First, Cersei has denied Jaime before.

Second, Jaime is proving to be the most noble of all the characters this side of Ned Stark. Also, the only person he truly loves is Cersei and he has no desire to hurt her. He was also very obedient to her.

5/20/2015 01:47:06 pm

What you just said is exactly the reason people took issue with that seen.

Jaime's development puts him where you say he is... but the direction of that scene betrayed that. We know it wasn't intended to be a rape scene, but intention only matters so much, if at all, when face with an audience's perception. You're actually the first person outside of articles with people who work on the show that I've come across to not see it as a rape sequence, albeit unintentional.

5/20/2015 02:27:42 pm

Consent is not consent. I don't even know what that means. Please never dole out the advice that as long as one party understands it's consensual, it's consensual. Not how it works (in America at least). "We had a special relationship that you just had to understand" is not a winning argument. Source: A shit-ton of caselaw.

5/20/2015 02:30:42 pm

"She's denied him before" only means that she's denied him before and he listened. It doesn't mean it would work every time. This is an insane defense.

"Jaime is noblest this side of Ned" That has nothing to do with it. Plenty of "good guys" have raped someone. This is even more insane. (Besides, Tyrion and Oberyn and other people who don't attempt to murder children are clearly more noble than Jaime.)

5/20/2015 11:51:27 am

At first I thought you were trolling, but apparently not.

I've mentioned multiple times that I'm okay with deviations from the books (example even in the initial post, Jaime and Bronn to Dorne)... but that doesn't mean they get a pass when they make a change and it just doesn't work for me. I'm allowed to be unhappy about that. And it's not worrying about Arya killing somebody, she's done that, and will do it many more times, I imagine. I feel like you didn't really pay attention to what I wrote... or just took what you wanted from it.

I greatly disagree... no, she's not the all powerful ready to rule the 7 kingdoms queen that people think she is or want her to be.. but she's certainly grown and developed a sense of agency. What could be worse here, is that they're going to make her an ever stronger character now because of this, of all things.

I never said the show didn't have any strong women. I said the show has a habit of reducing them or cutting them out... Yes, there certainly are still some around. I wish the Queen of Thorns can just rule the world, with Sansa, Arya and Shireen in her court.

This rape didn't occur in King's Landing... but I'll assume you mean Westeros.

The Twins are talked about in the other comments.

5/20/2015 12:42:58 pm

How has Sansa grown? She's a tool for everyone around her, and has been from the very beginning. Hell, her dad was even marrying her off to the Baratheons. She's been doing what she's been told her entire life, and it's continuing now. She had the opportunity to go with Brienne and stayed with Littlefinger because Sansa refuses to think for herself. If anything, Sansa is shrinking. By the time Ramsey is done with her she will not want to be anything but a stable girl who is called upon to make food, sew, and clean house. Her ambitions of being high born will be completely gone. She is hardly a leader and has shown no ability whatsoever to prove she has what it takes to be anything more than a passive "yes-man."

Your exact quote was "The show already has very few strong and positive female characters..." which I disagree greatly with. The show has more strong and positive female characters than most shows on television. I just don't think you are looking. You wanted Sansa to be that character, and it didn't happen. That doesn't mean the show is void of strong women. It just means Sansa is weak and pathetic. (Thats trolling)

Regarding deviations from the book, if you don't like where a story is going, just say "I don't like where the story is going." Saying "I don't like where the story is going and the book version is better" is just silly. The showrunners do a great job of balancing the two, but television has limitations that will never allow it to meet print.

Yes, I did mean Westeros, thank you.

5/20/2015 01:00:31 pm

Hell, even the director talked about how Sansa is matured and hardened, and is no longer the timid high born girl from season's past. She's been growing and learning by watching and listening.... how to play the game. Of course, in her position, she knows she can't just off on her own right now, and Littlefinger has shown her to be one of the most persistent survivors and climbers of the ladder... exactly what she wants to be (although now, it's not all lovely dreams and fairy tale endings, and she's learned that from her Dad's death, to Joffery, to family being murdered, etc). It's no surprised she turns down Brienne... most people mock the woman being a warrior, especially when the talk about her supposed failure to protect Renly and Cat. Nobody said she won't make bad decisions along the way.. she's not suddenly Littlefinger's equal in the game. But to say she hasn't grown at all is dismissive.
I would have rather seen her initiate the sex with Ramsay... using her agency, using what Littlefinger has taught her about playing the game, and calling back what Cersei told her back during the Blackwater siege. Instead, they're going to basically play it as she's showing her strength and will by enduring Ramsay's abuse in order to gain position.

And I don't see what's wrong with referring back to the books in saying that... "I don't like where the story is going... the deviation doesn't work, and you had a good story to draw from already." Being able to separate the two mediums does not mean I have to be a show apologist or cannot compare the two at all.. seeing as they both tell the stories of the same (for the most part) characters.. . it's more than fair to say... "that didn't work, that would have, if it could have been done." As you said, if i couldn't make the separation, I couldn't have enjoyed the show as much as I have for the majority of it.

5/20/2015 01:28:12 pm

The book and the show are two different stories. They have to be because of the differing capabilities between the two. To me it makes no sense to view a plot twist or turn in a story as a negative because the book did it differently. It makes so much more sense to treat the two as their own independent stories. I feel like you are just setting yourself up for disappointment by consistently linking the two.

Sure Sansa has matured and hardened. But people mature and harden in prison too. Does that make them leaders? Certainly not.

Sansa's growth is not about being a leader. Her growth is simply seeing how cruel the world is. She has lost her childhood innocence, but it doesn't make her a compelling leading lady. It makes her, at best, average.

Did you really suggest you would rather see her iniate sex with Ramsey? I'm not sure how to respond to that, other than to say that if she were to do that I would think even less of her. It would also be severly over playing her hand with Ramsey as its plainly obvious that consensual sex is not exactly a way to manipulate him.

5/20/2015 01:43:22 pm

I'll respond one last time, as I feel you're not really listening or I'm doing a horrible job of conveying this...

I know they're different stories. I never said a story in the show is bad BECAUSE it was different in the book. But when you're dealing with the same characters with the same background stories, you do have a sense of what could work for the character, when something actually doesn't on the show. I enjoyed many changes in the show, others I have not. It hasn't been a direct comparison of the two, unless I didn't agree with the show on its own merits. That's not at all what you seem to think I'm doing.

Her learning about how cruel the world is also a way of learning how to manipulate it... which is powerful and useful to leaders. She may not end up in a leadership role, but it is, from what I've read on sites and blogs, the consensus expectation at this point. Of course, those tides can turn easily for anybody.

I wouldn't expect you to agree with me on that, seeing as we're so far off on other things, especially concerning Sansa.. and that's fine. But, it has been shown that he does enjoy consensual sex as well...he's clearly not bored with Miranda who is all about him. It would have been a bold and unexpected turn of control, one that we actually don't know how Ramsay would react... I think there's a good chance he'd be slightly taken aback, and be for it. But who knows, it matters not since it didn't go there.

5/20/2015 01:53:46 pm

Regarding the show, I get what you are saying, but what I am suggesting is by holding the two so close together you are bound to be disapointed. Its a no win situation for you, and I think that just sucks and takes some of the fun out of it. I don't really see them as the same characters anymore. To me they are completely different, because they have to be completly different. Does that make sense?

I really do get what you are saying about the show and the book. I just can't imagine myself holding on to the characters that tightly. I'm not saying you are wrong for doing it, especially now that I understand your perspective more. But, for me, I choose to view the characters as different entitites.

I'm going to move Ramsey and Sansa to a different thread.

5/20/2015 03:53:34 pm

My take on Sansa's character is that she doesn't actually do anything in any episode, ever. Easily my least favorite character since day 1.

5/20/2015 02:05:37 pm

Sure Ramsay enjoys consensual sex, but he also bores very easily of these women. Then he hunts them down with his dog.

Whether he had consensual sex or he raped Sansa made no different to him. He was still getting his. And that is really all he cares about. He really could give a fuck if Miranda is enjoying herself or not. He just knows that he likes what she does. Ramsay is all about Ramsay. If Sansa shows interest in him, why would he care. He's going to take her anyways.

Besides, the only person that Sansa has proven herself capable of manipulating is Sweet Little Robin...a possibly autisitic boy who viewed Sansa in a motherly fashion. Thats not scoring very high in my book. So I could never buy her sexually manipulating (or manipulating him any other way) a psychopath like Ramsay, when he clearly has superior skills at doing exactly that. For example, Theon Greyjoy now thinks he is Reek.

I don't think her learning how cruel the world is means she is learnign how to manipulate it. I just think she is learning she wants to live in her little Winterfeld World and never leave again. She'll even promise to be a good little wife if she has to. Sansa is not a fighter or a manipulator. Someone else is going to have to save her, because she can't save herself. At least I have yet to see anything to this point that tells me she can save herself.

Game of Thrones: Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

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